Point n Shoot and strobe combo?

[Steve n Keeta]

My wife and I are planning a dive trip to the Great Berrier Reef next may... and being amateur divers, we decided this year we were going to purchase a digital point and shoot camera and buy a housing for it. We're having a hard time finding a quality product out there. I've gained some insight from this forum board about particular camera's. We've narrowed our search to several... My wife loves those credit card cameras, and I do as well...but the difficult part is finding one that has the most quality and features, with the slimmist design, that will also do well underwater. We will use the camera outside diving as well, so at some later time we might invest in a more expensive unit. So here we are.... we're looking at the Sony T9 (Im also aware of T30 and a T50 out there??), Canon Powershot SD800 (and S80), and the Olympus Stylus products (750 and others). And my wife already went out and bought the Sony T9, so now I've dove into the research, and am finding too much confusion here. Hopefully some of you might be able to help us!

The Canon Powershots mentioned were recommended by a camera store because they have wide angle lens which Im not familiar how important that is? Is this a good thing to have underwater?? They also have a better optical zoom (3.8 and 3.6 respectively) than the Sony and Olympus. Both are 7mp and higher with at least a 2.5 LCD screen. They have the new technology for image stabilization, as does the others. Now, two elements of photography Im still learning about... aperature and ISO... the T9 concerned me because its range was only 3.5 to 4.3, vs Canon 2.8 to either 5.8 or 5.3. And the ISO for the T9 only goes up to 640, vs 1600 on the Canon's and Im not sure about the Olympus. But I did read on www.CNET.com reviews that the Canon SD800's ISO 1600 setting had a lot of noise. I guess this means fuzziness or something. Are these two aspects really important at well?? I keep hearing about lag time, shutter speed and burst speed?? I believe lag time is the time in between picture taking?! I think all three of these camera's rival one another in this area.... and are quick. Maybe someone can shead some light here as well. Im somewhat leaning toward the Canon SD800...but am still unsure. Its not as slim as the T9 and some others, but I thinking its the better camera.

My last question is regarding strobes? If we end up with one of the above mentioned cameras, or with another we havent yet been lead onto... what about stobes?? Are they a must have, or does the camera's own flash suffice? Ive been onto all three manufacturers websites (Sony, Canon, and Olympus) and couldnt find accessory underwater strobes for these models. Are there still strobes you can link to them and if so, how?

[Jonathan Bird]

Whew! Lots of questions to answer. Let me take a whack at it and maybe others can chime in.

STROBE
The internal strobe will only work for very close up pphotography. It's too small and too close to the lens, so it gives you backscatter unless you are shooting something very close. That's the underwater equivalent of "red eye". An external strobe will work a lot better. It's more powerful, so you can light a larger area, and it's further from the lens, so it doesn't cause as much backscatter (light reflecting off particles in the water and right back into the lens, giving you the snowstorm effect).

LENS ANGLE
Wide angle underwater is GOOD so get the camera with the widest lens you can. Most people end up putting external adapters on the housing to make the lens even wider. The reason? Water is murky and sucks up strobe light. Even clear water is a lot worse than air for shooting through. The closer you can get, the better. The wider the lens, the more you can get in the shot when you get close. First rule of underwater photography: get close. Second rule: get closer. This is a lot easier with a wide lens.

ISO RATING
In my opinion, not that important. The only time you are going to need a lot of "film speed" (i.e. high ISO) is if you are shooting with a red filter and ambient light. If you are using a strobe, you don't need or want ISO 1600. Besides, it's noisy anyway.

Anyone else want to chime in? Unfortunately, I know nothing about the current offerings and features in point and shoots. I must admit though, even though I'm a Nikon guy, I much prefer Canon's point and shoots.

Jonathan

[Warren_L]

I've been out of the point and shoot market for a while now too, and am a Nikon guy also ... but I think Canon and Olympus have the best offerings for point and shoot underwater use. Fuji also has a few decent models as well. And for the most part, you're going to be relying on slave triggered strobes as well (that is, optically triggered by a slave sensor based off your on-board camera flash). Popular makes of these types of strobes would be ones from manufacturers like Sea and Sea, Inon and Ikelite. The good thing about the Ike strobes is, depending on which one you go with, you might be able to port them to a dSLR system later with wired sync or TTL.

[Steve n Keeta]

thanks for the help... and for the speedy response. Ok... so you two are Nikon guys.... I have what now is probably 'old'... an N80, which I use on more rare occasion. I know I need to swap it for the D80. Anyhow, so Canon is the way to go with the wide angle lens for point n shoots. Im made the choice their, and Canon has their own underwater housing build for the Powershot SD800.

Jonathan and Warren... you mentioned slaving strobes to the camera(having them 'triggered' to the camera's flash with some sort of slave sensor??). Im not familiar with this...can you explain this? And is it possible to do it with this particular camera? I know you may not be familiar with this Canon http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=14227 ...but Im just trying to figure out if I have to buy a camera that had an external strobe designed for it. I dont want to buy it and then find out Im stuck with the internal one only. Do I buy a general external stobe from Ike light (sp?) or Sea n Sea?? Is there one you would recomment (or two)? Does the camera's flash have to be disabled to prevent what Jonathan was saying about 'red eye' and backscatter? Pfeww.... I think this covers it.

Thank you for the insight!
Steve

[Warren_L]

For many point and shoot cameras, they do not have the ability to wire a direct sync connection with an external strobe. As such, in order to use an external strobe, they must rely on the on-board flash to trigger a slave sensor on the external strobe,. The slave sensor detects the light from the onboard flash and fires the strobe. This happens so quickly that it appears both flash and strobe fire simultaneously. Because this is so quick the light from both sources will light up your shot. But as Jonathan has mentioned, the on-board flash is too direct and can result in backscatter. To minimize this effect, the onboard flash is blocked so that light going straight out is stopped, but you need to allow enough light to be emitted at an angle (so as not to affect your shot), but be enough to trigger the strobe. The strobe itself will have a slave sensor which can detect light and then fire the strobe.

One thing to keep in mind with point and shoot cameras that use an onboard flash is that they may utilize a series of pre-flashes. These are a series of flashes that are emitted by the camera to help it determine how much light is required for the shot before it actually fires the shot off. This is important when using a strobe with a slave sensor because the strobe needs to be able to understand that there is a pre-flash, otherwise it could fire prematurely and will not fire for the shot.

Additionally, the camera you select - make sure that you can set all the settings manually. I've found that often times, when in an automatic mode where the camera automatically selects what it thinks are the best settings, often do not do a very good job. Having a quick look at that link, I cannot tell if it allows for full manual control.

As well, when shooting underwater, it is all about getting close to your subject, which means having a nice wide angle capability. Most built in lenses can do a fair job at getting good wide angle. However, you may want to consider adding on a wide angle lens to make your view even wider than the camera can do on it's own. For most point and shoot cameras, this means being able to add a wet-mount lens (a lens you add to the housing port, and is designed to work in the water as opposed to sealed in the housing).

These, to me, would be absolute musts if I were looking for a good point and shoot system for underwater use.

[Daniel]

For many point and shoot cameras, they do not have the ability to wire a direct sync connection with an external strobe.

Warren makes a valid point, most point & shoot cameras don't have a direct sync cord connection with the external strobe. However, the Olympus SP350 and its PT-030 housing combined with the available bulkhead connection provides TTL (Through the Lens, used when talking about either an autofocus or auto exposure system that works through the camera's lens.) functionality.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h110/DLaFrance/SP350.jpghttp://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h110/DLaFrance/SP350_1.jpg

Shown in the photo's:
1. Olympus SP350 digital camera
2. Olympus PT-030 housing
3. Sea & Sea YS90 Auto Strobe
4. TTL Connector
5. Single Sync Cord
6. INON Wide Angle Lens (wet mount, screws on to the exterior of housings port)
7. Ultralight Tray/Arm configuration for a Single Stobe

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Daniel :)

[dbh]

I believe only the Canon A series P-n-S cameras have manual control, which I believe is the most important feature to have. While RAW is nat a necessity, I would hate not to have it since using it from day 1 of my digital days (Olympus 5050).

It is hard to beat Inon strobes. they are very compact and have a heck of a punch! Some can be fired with a fiber optic cable or a sync cord....others by fiber optic only. If you ever plan on upgrading, I would get one that can be fired either way. The new Sea & Sea YS-110 might be worth checking out. Be prepared to pay as much for a strobe, arms & tray as you payed for your camera & housing. However, a good strobe will grow with you and last for many years. Don't scrimp when buying a strobe! You definitely get what you pay for when it comes to strobes.

Quite a few people are using the Olympus (some number or letter)350 underwater. It may be worth checking out.

HTH,
Dave

[Steve n Keeta]

By the way, I think this is a spectacular message board... you all have been a huge help and I am shocked how much in depth insight Ive recieved, and how quick it came. I fully appreciate everyone's help.

Well... now you all have just made it more tough to deside on a camera. Im going to look into the Olympus SP350. It seems a little bulky by itself...the only big deterrent when we also are looking for something pocketable outside the water, but I did see it has manual modes. Then again, I feel Im still a novice at understanding how to use and manage the camera in a manual mode.... f stop/ aperature etc. I have a Nikon N80... hardly use it anymore b/c deeling with film.

When in manual mode, do any of you have an example as to what particular setting you'd use for a certain kind of underwater picture?? (hope thats not too vague)

Daniel...what do you like most about your Olympus?

What is RAW?

Went onto Ike Lite's website...when looking at the Canon SD800 IS, this link http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/camcanchart.html says the 800 doesnt use a digital slave sensor and doesnt use a sync cord (like you all mentioned), uses the camera's built in flash, and is a pre flash camera. It also says it is uses an EV manual controller (??). I dont know what to make of this information...whether its saying a strobe has to be connected in some other way to the camera. Im going to call Ike Lite and try to determine this.

Ciao- Steve

[tarczy]

Steve-

Check out this website for a comprehensive review of all digicams (Oly SP-350 included). I think it's the best digicam review site out there.

http://www.dpreview.com/ (http://www.dpreview.com/)

Also, they provide a glossary of terms and a discussion board, so you can teach yourself about the advantages of RAW shooting.

[dbh]

Steve,

Here is a primer I put together for a friend a few years ago when I was shooting an Olympus 5050 and she had just got one. Alot of it should still hold true.

http://www.myunderwaterworld.com/5050settings.htm

One (of many) great things about digital is that you can shoot, shoot, shoot ...and it won't cost you a dime. You can play with aperture & shutter speed topside and see how it affects your pictures....then delete them :-).

Ikelite strobes do not have fiber optic capabilities. So for cameras that cannot be hardwired directly to Ike's strobe (with a sync cord), an EV manual controller is used. It is basically a sensor that mounts on your strobe arm. It "senses" the magnitude of your cameras built-in flash and sends a signal to the strobe.

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/mansensors.html

If you went with the Oly SP 350, an Ikelite strobe can be hardwired to an Ikelite housing, eliminating the EV manual controller and giving you true TTL.

I cannot stress enough not to scrimp on your strobe. Get an Inon, Ikelite or Sea & Sea. I promise you you will not be happy with a lesser strobe. If you cannot afford one right now....use your internal flash until you can get one.

HTH,
Dave

[Warren_L]

Well... now you all have just made it more tough to deside on a camera. Im going to look into the Olympus SP350. It seems a little bulky by itself...the only big deterrent when we also are looking for something pocketable outside the water, but I did see it has manual modes. Then again, I feel Im still a novice at understanding how to use and manage the camera in a manual mode.... f stop/ aperature etc. I have a Nikon N80... hardly use it anymore b/c deeling with film.

With time, you'll learn what settings you'll want to use under certain circumstances, but the important thing is that you have that capability. Automatic mode for shooting topside pics are fine, but often times I find there's nothing worse than not being able to control my settings for underwater shooting. Especially with digital vs. film, the learning curve is going to be so much easier with the ability to quickly review your shot after it's taken. If your shot is off, you can quickly make an adjustment if you're in manual mode.


What is RAW?


There's probably too much to explain in a single post. so definitely read up on some online resources like the ones that have been posted here. Suffice it to say, though, RAW mode is essentially just the RAW sensor data from the camera, and is not really a viewable format - it requires further processing to create a viewable image such as .JPG, .GIF, .TIF or any one of a number other formats you're probably familiar with.

Digital cameras have built in processing of RAW data to produce .JPG files right out of the camera, but the advantage of RAW is that it allows you to do this processing yourself using any one of a number of software programs out there that supports the RAW format of your particular camera. Of note, programs such as Photoshop are among the most popular RAW programs that are being used (but by no means is the only one). By doing the processing yourself, it can potentially give you greater control over the end result. Not that you can't adjust .JPG files, but you may lose some latitude and it may be more difficult. Remember that some file formats such as .JPG are lossy compressed formats (that is to say some of the original data is lost during compression).

I find having RAW capabilities are important to me for what I do, but the drawback to having this capability is generally larger required storage space, and potentially longer write times and shutter lag for point and shoot cameras. I do believe point and shoot cameras are improving in this aspect, though, as newer models are coming out with bigger buffers to help reduce lag. My prior Olympus C5050 was capable of RAW mode, but I never used it because it took far too long between shots.

Anyhow, looking back, I hadn't intended on writing so much, but as you can see, there's a ton of stuff to learn about RAW, and I've not even scratched the surface.

[Jonathan Bird]

Warren, that was a good basic explanation of RAW without going all technical. A slightly more technical definition is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAW_image_format

Most pros use RAW format because it allows a lot more tweaking in post than a jpg or even tif, and the raw file is actually smaller than a tif (though larger than a jpg). The cost is much more computational horsepower required to deal with the images later.

Jonathan

[Daniel]

Daniel...what do you like most about your Olympus?

I don't want to mislead you into thinking I have the Olympus setup described earlier. Like you, I've been looking at various options so when I do upgrade, I'll be happy with my decision.

I currently use a Olympus C5050 Zoom and it's a pretty decent point and shoot camera. However, as others have mentioned in their comments about some of the photo's I've posted here, I would benefit from having a strobe.

Cheers!
Daniel :)

[dbh]

The 5050 still is a very capable u/w camera. Its worst point IMHO....shutter lag!!! I sure got alot of fish butts when I was using one :-).

Dave

[Jonathan Bird]

Shutter lag is the #1 downside of P&S cameras and probably the #1 reason why people abandon the P&S for an SLR eventually.

Jonathan

[Daniel]

Here's some additional information that you might find useful.

Source: http://www.consumersearch.com/www/photo_and_video/digital-camera-reviews/index.html

A good case in point is the mixed coverage we found for some 8-megapixel cameras. The Olympus SP-350 (*est. $250) , for example, gets great scores for ergonomics and ease of use, and its feature set is terrific. It has a large 2.5-inch LCD, and it takes VGA-resolution movies. There are lots of scene modes and help functions to aid beginners, while a full complement of manual controls give more advanced users room to grow. Image quality is very good, with accurate colors, good sharpness and lower noise at high ISO than other cameras.

However, as with several seemingly excellent cameras, the Olympus SP-350's Achilles heel is its speed-related performance, including shutter lag (the time it takes for the autofocus to lock and for the shutter to snap) and recycle time (the time it takes for the camera to record the image and be ready to take another photo). These two factors can make or break whether you enjoy using a camera: Excellent image quality doesn't do you much good unless the camera is quick enough to capture a shot. In tests, shutter lag for the Olympus SP-350 measured a full second in some cases, especially for indoor shots. Most cameras have a typical shutter lag of around .5 second, while the best can snap a shot in .3 second or less. Shot-to-shot times for the Olympus SP-350 digital camera measure from 3 to 5 seconds between photos. In a review at Steve's Digicams, editors say battery life is also poor compared to other cameras.
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Cheers!
Daniel :)