Underwater FILM Photography Is Dead

[tarczy]

:p

Okay . . . don't shoot the messenger!

Just thought I'd start a lively discussion here.

In a recent interview Rod Klein (http://www.rhkuw.com/) commented "When Nikon announced they were no longer producing film cameras, I knew I had to go Digital."

[Jonathan Bird]

A year ago I might have argued with you about that, but you may be right! I can say for sure that anyone just starting out in u/w photography at this point would be crazy not to avail him/herself of the faster learning curve of digital. There are still a few ways in which film rules (resolution, contrast) but for the most part, 99% of the pictures we take can be done as well or better on digital.

OMG, did I just say that? Film must be dead. I think I was the last guy I know to switch to digital!

That being said, you really need to be fairly computer saavy to shoot digital with the complicated and time-consuming workflow of managing large numbers of digital images.

Oh, that gives me an idea for a new discussion....

Jonathan

[sjaqua]

It's not dead. but some may feel it's on life support.

The truth is, while the film share of the market will continue to decline for the next few years. I have a hard time ever seeing it go completely away.

Until the technology radicaly changes, there are certain types of shots that digital will never be able to match. And then there is the whole group of folks who will continue to shoot film for the art or challange of it.

Lets face it. I still stick pieces of steel into a forge and pound them to shape with a hammer and anvil. So I figure film will at least have a few of it's own history buffs hanging on to it :)

Scott B. Jaqua

[tarczy]

It's not dead. but some may feel it's on life support.

The truth is, while the film share of the market will continue to decline for the next few years. I have a hard time ever seeing it go completely away.

Until the technology radicaly changes, there are certain types of shots that digital will never be able to match. And then there is the whole group of folks who will continue to shoot film for the art or challange of it.

Lets face it. I still stick pieces of steel into a forge and pound them to shape with a hammer and anvil. So I figure film will at least have a few of it's own history buffs hanging on to it :)

Scott B. Jaqua


Yeah . . . I guess it all depends on how you define "dead." From a pure marketing perspective, I see zero "marketing" life in film as a viable business going forward. Ten years ago, when digital film was emerging, a very highly placed marketing V.P. at Kodak was quoted in an interview saying "Digital is just a fad. Film is here to stay and Kodak will remain the leader in film photography."

Well . . . the arrogant V.P. no longer has a job and the once venerable Kodak no longer has a leadership position in the world of photography.

Will film ever go away completely? Probably not in our lifetime. My view is consistent with yours. There will always be film aficionados, just like there are aficionados of vinyl records ("albums" . . back in my day). But, as a viable business model going forward, anybody who plants their flag in the "film" photography world is pretty much toast. :(

[Clay Coleman]

While mainstream photography is certainly digital, there will always be a place for flim. The switch from 35mm film to digital is much like the switch from 120 film to 35mm film in the '50's. Although that was more than 50 years ago, there are still plenty of serious folks shooting 120 film. There's no doubt that film will become less supported and therefore less convenient to use, but it will remain a niche market and will retain followers. Alas, there is only one commercial in-house E6 processor left in the entire city of Baton Rouge, and the future of that service is in jeopardy. Hence my personal switch to digital. -Clay

[Jonathan Bird]

I agree that there will always be a small group of enthusiasts that will shoot film for one reason or another. The LP record example was perfect. There are still people that insist that records are "better" than CDs because they are analog and CDs introduce too much quantization error. (Don't get me started on how silly this argument is...I started my professional career as an electrical engineer). BUT, using that analogy, we can still say that records are 99.9% dead because 999 out of 1000 people prefer (and buy) CDs and most new releases are not available on vinyl. In a few years, it may be that film becomes so obscure that it is too expensive to bother with unless you are absolutely obsessed with it. But until hollywood largely abandons film, film itself will be readily available. There is a movement towards electronic cinematography in Hollywood, but it's a slow one. I expect movies will still be shot on film for years to come.

Jonathan

[EcoDiving]

I've always used Fuij films but last week the Fuij production in the Netherlands is stopped. I think it''s time to go digital. Film looks very dead to me!

[nemo]

I got together with some hard core old school shooters and we talked about the days when photography was a true talent and you had to know how film reacted to light and time ..etc. We spoke about the images we took that changed our direction in photography... blah blah.. afterwards we finished the gathering by taking photos of each other and a few group shots..
yep, you guessed it ..With our digital cameras... sad, sad indeed..
oh well, embrace it or be left behind

[chris bangs]

I got together with some hard core old school shooters and we talked about the days when photography was a true talent and you had to know how film reacted to light and time ..etc. We spoke about the images we took that changed our direction in photography... blah blah.. afterwards we finished the gathering by taking photos of each other and a few group shots..
yep, you guessed it ..With our digital cameras... sad, sad indeed..
oh well, embrace it or be left behind

In regard to the skill and the art required to capture an image, if you are shooting in full manual mode as I do, I see little difference between film and digital photography.

I think the ART is the same, aside from just just futzing with the controls to get the exposure correct I still use aperture to control DOF and shutter speed to freeze or accent movement. And of course bracketing the exposure is still essential. And last but not least, the real art is composition.

In many cases Film produces better results, I still shoot with film now and then but as the digital cameras improve I am doing less and less of this. In the future I am positive digital will overcome these shortfalls and my film shooting days will be over.

Cheers

Chris

[Clay Coleman]

Film must be dead. I think I was the last guy I know to switch to digital!
Jonathan

Not so, Jonathan. I'm still shooting film exclusively underwater although I'm using a D70s and a D200 topside. I'll probably have the D200 in a housing before year's end, but it'll be quite a while before I start leaving my trusty, crusty, tiny little old Nikonos at home.

And Chris is right. The recording technology has taken a revolutionary step, but the technique of using the new gear is the same as using the old. -Clay

[nemo]

Quote: Real ART is composition... you are so right.
Seeing an image and visualizing what you want others to FEEL in your expression of that moment in time is known as ART.
This can be acheived easier with a 2 inch LCD screen on the back of your camera and / or a computer that is hooked by a USB cable right into photoshop and uploaded directly to your Clients AD Company by the time it takes to change an f stop. Oh yea, that can be done by the laptop keys as well...yes I know I am talking about being topside...and it is cool. As for me, I look at film and digital as the same. It captures (hopefully correct) a moment in time. Never to be truly duplicated and never to pass as the same again. I shoot with Canon digital EOS 1-DS, 5-D, Rollie medium format and Linhof 4x5 & 8x10 I have no brand loyalty to any. Cameras are time keepers for film & digital. My favorite camera is an old Ikon 4x5 ( that's right IKON)that I got from a famous (of his time) photographer, the glass is impure so the images are like that of a carnie mirror. Photography is an ART and we are ARTISTS who use tools to create and by this hopefuly make a living.
I have a saying "what would Ansel do?" but we are are talking about u/w so all I can say "use what you love until it is taken away."

[Mycroft]

I still use Alpas topside and Nikonos under. And if you know what I am talking about, you know I never went to the auto everything cameras of yesteryear in film.

The sad part was losing a particular lab a few years ago. They were the best. I have a photo taken on E6 in which a small railing appears in the foreground. At 20x30 blown up, this railing is still only about 2 inches wide, yet I can see the reflections in the water on the railing clearly.

Or another, I have an 8x10 of a Green Moray on my wall beside me. I scanned that image before sending it out for chemical printing. In the scan, off to the left of the eel head, it appears to be a bunch of backscatter. In the chemical print, it turns out that that is a school of really tiny fish.

Or finally, I have an 8x10 of a night launch of Columbia on my wall. To give you some idea, this frame was taken with a 2000mm lens, scanned onto a 70mm laser interneg, then enlarged to 8x10. The resulting image was picked up by a national magazine for printing. I tried for years to scan that image at 2700 dpi at the 35mm slide, and all I could ever get was blobs of color.

Bottom line, I still go where digital can't follow my film.

[nemo]

May I recommend a scanner that has given me new life to old images.
Check out Imacon scanners... I have been blown away by there product line-up.
The cost is way out there but if you can find a dlab who has one.. it is worth your time and money. I sent a lab an 4x5 fujichrome and had it scanned.. wow, I mean wow what info I had to work with..

[Jonathan Bird]

You film dudes should check out the new Chris Newbert interview in the "Business" section.

Jonathan

[sorvju-f]

You film dudes should check out the new Chris Newbert interview in the "Business" section.

Jonathan

The life is changing, and we have to change with it....its not negative!

Jukka

[solisti]

The life is changing, and we have to change with it....its not negative!

And even if it was, anyone used to shooting film should be able to hadle it... :)

[tarczy]

" . . . According to data from CIPA (Camera & Imaging Products Association) digital camera shipments by CIPA members (the majority of digital camera manufacturers) are up 27% overall in the first half of this year compared to the same period last year. The largest growth coming from DSLRs, a total of 3.5 million units, up some 75% compared to the first half of last year. Despite strong growth price pressures mean that growth by value is less at around 11% for a total of $5.9 billion . . . "

You can see the rest of the article here . . .

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07080302cipashiph1.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07080302cipashiph1.asp)

Interesting . . .

Back in my film days, I had 1 camera that I used for over 15 years. Today, I have four digital cameras and a ton of glass. I guess I can see why digital camera sales continue to boom. :rolleyes:

[Clay Coleman]

I'm convinced that my future is in digital, but a recent experience has taught me to never leave my Nikonos at home again. -Clay

[tarczy]

I'm convinced that my future is in digital, but a recent experience has taught me to never leave my Nikonos at home again. -Clay

Ha!! Clay, you make me laugh!!

Don't worry, it only takes one housing flooding for the erstwhile underwater photographer to quadruple his/her efforts to check, check and triple check all seals before entering the water again. Unless your name is Carl B., I seriously doubt you'll flood another housing in your lifetime. Let's hope so anyway!! ;)

[Clay Coleman]

Well, it's happened: The last E6 lab in town (Baton Rouge, LA) has shut down. Up until now, I could deliver film to a trusted friend and technician at 9am and have it back boxed and mounted by noon for about $7.50 a roll. All E6 film is now shipped to Florida with a full week turnaround at a cost of about $10 a roll. Although I'll hang on to my Nik for emergency backup, film is truly dead for mainstream high-end photography. C-41 films, however, are still going surprisingly strong. My E6 tech is now stripping film for a C-41 lab.

Tarczy: Yeah, I'm still toting the Nik. So far it's helped prevent any more problems with the housed system--sort of like bringing an umbrella to make sure it doesn't rain. -Clay

[Dinky]

[QUOTE=Jonathan Bird;42] OMG, did I just say that? Film must be dead. I think I was the last guy I know to switch to digital!

Nope, film is NOT dead and, I was the last guy to switch to digital. I have a Canon A1 SLR and dying to find a underwater case and companion underwater strobe to use it at depth. I also have a Canon Rebel XT digital camera I treated myself too last Christmas and LOVE this camera.

I've done some research and the cost for a underwater housing for the XT is quite expensive [over $1000+] and I can hope that when/if I can find a case for the A1, I can begin to use it to gain experience. Keep in mind I am a student in scuba diving and hope to start my PADI training in the next few weeks. So I first must overcome and adapt to the underwater world, get some scuba diving experience "under my belt" so to speak then branch out and try some serious underwater photography.

The other consideration is that one can take the 35mm film, have it processed at your local Walgreens joint either on a CD or as individual prints with the corresponding negatives. However I can see using the digital format as it's instant, "on the fly" photography and, once back on the surface and downloading your images to the desktop PC. You can do a lot within minutes after getting back to the computer shack.

So yes, I'd love to try out my Canon A1 and see where it takes me, especially using B/W film....for the contrast and home darkroom development [another interest from a long time ago [1960's] and enlargement.:p

This is my first post on this forum and over the next few days I'd like to look over some of the other topics to bring me up to speed on underwater photography techniques and adventures.

Dinky

[Clay Coleman]

Welcome to the forum, Dinky! We're looking forward to hearing of your progress. -Clay

[Dinky]

Welcome to the forum, Dinky! We're looking forward to hearing of your progress. -Clay
Hi Clay: Thanks for the "Welcome!!":p I found your website, saved it to my desktop earlier this afternoon and later this evening or perhaps tomorrow [Saturday], I will sit down and look over the many pix and/or discussions you have there. FYI: I ordered a new copy of the book, "The Certified Divers Handbook" via Amazon.com. I have an account with them and the book should be delivered to my home sometime early November.

After I have my scheduled appointment with my PCP on November 7th, I hope thereafter, to sign up with a local dive shop here in Tucson for their December four day PADI scuba course. Matter of fact, tomorrow [Saturday] I plan to stop by the dive shop [The Dive Shop http://www.azdiveshop.com/home.htm], meet some of the staff and ask a gazillion questions related to their training operations and especially, what discounts I can get purchasing gear from them as a new student.

Photography: Looking at the Ikelite website and underwater housings. Can you recommend other mfg's/websites that sell various housings to handle the Canon SLR A1 film camera, the Canon A85 Power Shot and Rebel XT digital cameras? These are the only cameras I currently own. I'd LOVE to put the XT in a housing but to get one leak and damage this camera. You really do not want to see a grown 64 year old man cry!:(

Cheers!

Dinky

[tarczy]

Dinky-

Welcome to the board . . .

Canon A-1 . . . eh?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i284/mongo255/Camera%20Gear/Canon-a1-top-web.jpg

Wow . . . that's ancient! I believe that model was introduced somewhere around 1978. Let's see . . . . ahhh yes . . . that was my first year in college . . . and now I'm gettin' ready to retire . . . Jeez! I think the guy who started this chat board wasn't even born yet. :D

If you're looking for a housing for the Canon A-1, but are on on a tight budget, I'd suggest you forget it. In fact, I'm wondering if there ever was a housing made for the Canon A-1. A better idea might be to try acquiring a Nikonos film camera and strobe and see how your film efforts work from there. Since digital photography's coming of age, Nikonos cameras have been literally flooding the used gear market. You could probably pick up a pretty nice rig (lenses, framers, strobes, etc.) for next to nothing. That said, I think you're really throwing good money after bad. You will definitely find the "digital" underwater photography experience much more gratifying.

You didn't say which model Digital Rebel XTi you purchased last Christmas, but since the Canon 400D Digital Rebel XTi (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/) was announced in August '06, I'm betting that's the model you currently have. If I'm right, you've got yourself a great camera. Try looking at digideep.com (http://www.digideep.com/) for a list of manufacturers with Canon 400D housings on the market. I've found this site to be the best for researching underwater housing manufacturers. To make things simple, click here (http://www.digideep.com/english/digital/photo/camera/Canon/EOS-400D/7/2644) for the catalog of Canon 400D housing manufacturers.

All of that said, I believe Ikelite is the most inexpensive underwater housing manufacturer for the 400D, which means you're looking at about $1,200 USD for the housing alone. Ports, strobes, arms, etc. will probably run you another $1,500 USD. Yes . . . underwater photography is not an inexpensive hobby/profession.

Whatever you do, please don't do this . . .

http://www.diyphotography.net/files/images/under_water_housing_intro.jpg


Hope this helps. Good luck!!

Mojito Banditooo :cool:

[Clay Coleman]

Hi Clay: Thanks for the "Welcome!!":p I found your website, saved it to my desktop earlier this afternoon and later this evening or perhaps tomorrow [Saturday], I will sit down and look over the many pix and/or discussions you have there. FYI: I ordered a new copy of the book, "The Certified Divers Handbook" via Amazon.com.

Dinky

Wow, Dinky, I think I need to put you on my Christmas card list! Seriously, Mark raised several good points. It would definitely be cheaper to buy a Nikonos film camera and strobe than it would be to house an A-1 (I have 2 A-1's, by the way--great cameras). I also agree that Ikelite is generally the least expensive housing manufacturer. Check to see if you homeowners or other insurance would cover your XT in the event of a flood. If not, you might want to take a look at DEPP (Diver's Equipment Protection Program) insurance. Fair warning: DEPP insurance is not cheap, either. But, hey, what would be special about doing something that is cheap and easy? -Clay

[Jonathan Bird]

I believe that model was introduced somewhere around 1978. Let's see . . . . ahhh yes . . . that was my first year in college . . . and now I'm gettin' ready to retire . . . Jeez! I think the guy who started this chat board wasn't even born yet. :D

Shut up....I was 10! :D Ya geezer!

[Dinky]

Wow . . . that's ancient! I believe that model was introduced somewhere around 1978.

Indeed it was. Matter of fact I was working at the Canon HQ in Lake Success, New York at the time between 1978 and 1982. I purchased my A1 directly from the company while there.

If you're looking for a housing for the Canon A-1, but are on on a tight budget, I'd suggest you forget it. In fact, I'm wondering if there ever was a housing made for the Canon A-1.

There may have been a housing for this camera. I just need to do some more research and see what I come up with.

You will definitely find the "digital" underwater photography experience much more gratifying.

This is why I am thinking that since I have the Canon PowerShot A85 digital camera [http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/A85/A85A.HTM]. This might be the best camera to start out with, purchase a housing for it, an underwater strobe and get some experience using it.

You didn't say which model Digital Rebel XTi you purchased last Christmas, but....

I bought the Canon Rebel XT shown here with the black housing

More later, perhaps but thanks for your input on this.:p

Dinky

[Dinky]

you might want to take a look at DEPP (Diver's Equipment Protection Program) insurance. Fair warning: DEPP insurance is not cheap, either. But, hey, what would be special about doing something that is cheap and easy? -Clay

I am a member of the DAN organization and have their "master" dive insurance protection plan. I believe they also carry [through a separate insurance company] equipment insurance to include photographic equipment. Its worth looking into. Thanks for the heads up!!
:rolleyes:
Dinky
PS: I will be looking over your website later in the day. From what I've previewed...lots of neat stuff.

[tarczy]

Shut up....I was 10! :D Ya geezer!

Ha ha!! Crack me up!! :D :D

Hey . . . if I were you, I would take that as a compliment! None of us are gettin' any younger!! Right? :D

[sorvju-f]

Ha ha!! Crack me up!! :D :D

Hey . . . if I were you, I would take that as a compliment! None of us are gettin' any younger!! Right? :D

I have to join to clup..I was the owner of AE-1, first canon with processor:D ...I think it was before A1 was anounced.

Jukka

[caymaniac]

If film was dead then I wouldn't be able to use film in my FILM camera in an underwater housing......which I plan to do this year. I also plan to buy a digital camera/housing but my budget won't yet allow me to. I have the film all set to go, Velvia 100 :D

[Jonathan Bird]

I have a fridge full of film if someone wants it. It is probably all past date by now but has been stored in the fridge since I bought it, so it's probably fine.

Jonathan

[Mycroft]

Then film will be dead for me.